The returns are diminishing so eventually you will hit a ceiling. A full suite of flaps on the trailing edges of the main wings give it exceptional low-speed lift, and small hydroplane steps mounted on each side of the fuselage bottom help lift it out of the water (lowering water drag) during takeoff runs. 3.) Or about the same speed but 1000 m higher. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. Display as a link instead, What are the units of measure used in Kerbal Space Program? Each stage of the rocket has a delta-v that depends on the stage fuel mass and the engine specific impulse. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. By climbing, you reduce drag, exponentially with altitude. Editing Kerbal Space Program save files for KSO, Rasterpropmonitor for Kerbal Space Program. Why do many companies reject expired SSL certificates as bugs in bug bounties? Is it possible to get to an altitude of 16-20km with normal plane engines? Its an approximation missing someelements. below 5,000 m), since the engine's extreme maneuverability may allow the aircraft to perform turns sharply enough to break up in flight. First off as of .15.1 intakes don't do anything. Put a couple of radial mount parachutes just above the com and add a reaction wheel. That would argue for going as high as possible, as slow as possible, but apart from drag you also have to fight gravity. At that point your engines will be running about .7-.8 efficiency and you will be out of the thicker atmo which will allow you to go faster. June 3, 2022 . Main goals: Auto-trimming. That's just a guess, though-- perhaps someone more familiar with FAR could weigh in.). Using indicator constraint with two variables, Is there a solution to add special characters from software and how to do it. Another problem is jet engines stealing fuel from the rockets' tanks - you may want to pump the fuel manually (requires an R&D centre upgrade) or add some pipes between them. 3x06: I design a new, high altitude, jet to collect high. 2022 Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. Even if the air is thin, you can still put out plenty of power if you are shoving enough in with raw speed. As you found out, it basically konks out at 15km. The Inland Kerbal Space Center itself, being in effect the old Kerbal Space Center from 0.2. You could try combining the two. Once you're at that regime, you should be able to cover huge distances on tiny amounts of fuel. However, it seems as if your delta wing has has more area, might that be it? Press J to jump to the feed. The Panther engine can hold 19,000 steady and oscillates around 20,000. http://www.youtube.com/user/Cruzanak?sub_confirmation=1Quicklinks to topics in this videoJet Engine Concepts: 0:30Air Intakes: 1:13Flameouts: 2:22Control Surfaces: 5:08Flying Tips: 5:57This video will go over everything that you need to know about to design a capable plane that can fly in the thinnest of atmospheres. : : . Be aware that heat buildup can gradually become a problem when the afterburners are used in sustained flight. Under some circumstances, you may want to reduce the engine gimbal range or disable it altogether, particularly when flying at high speeds (e.g. To reach the initial low Earth orbit of the International Space Stationof 300 km (now 400 km), the delta-v is over six times higher, about 9.4 km/s. Any of my search term words; All of my search term words; Find results in. The more successful the flights, the more successful the space program is. This is the first version. But. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one. The flight time won't be as long, but you'll be able to fly a "plane" above 18km. jet engine efficiency in this game is based on built in thrust curves. That would oscillate slowly between 16000m and 17000m but was otherwise fully controllable. It was meant for low altitude flight. I don't have that cockpit in my career game yet, but maybe it will work with the other one. Designing a High Altitude Jet | KSP: Making Space Home Mike Aben 24.8K subscribers Join Subscribe 85 Share 3.4K views 1 year ago Ep. I've since shaved that down more but that was by going even higher and even faster). Isn't that backwards snark? principle. Simply changing the intakes made it fly completely out of control and impossible to land. Thank you, I was able to reach up to 24km altitude with this design. Slap that behind a plane you'll be able to go beyond 20km without any trouble. Chapter 4. Technically, any rocket engine is also a jet engine as it forms a high-speed jet of reaction mass. Have a plane that ditches its wings and rockets up to 18km once you reach the right point. 2022 Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. Challenges Another approach, which I was managing with some success before I figured out jets, is to build a rocket and catapult yourself towards the measurement point. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. Should i add a larger wing area for higher lift? This makes jets built using this engine considerably more maneuverable. You can do that by right-clicking the engine and clicking "Toggle Mode." So, to correct " is below crosshairs", what you need to do is to add a little AoA to the wings. (Disclaimer: I've never used FAR myself; all of the above is based on my experience with stock aerodynamics. It will be expensive and time consuming. To avoid running out of fuel altogether, I have a second plane with small tanks (no oxidizer) attached directly to the jet engines, and the rockets attached behind the fuselage, which is entirely oxidized tanks. . At altitude the nose goes up and down until it goes out of control. Yes, although they have only been flown with nearly full tanks. A little while back I spent a long time trying to circumnavigate Kerbin on the least liquid fuel possible (i posted the record to the sub: 254 units of fuel. Upload or insert images from URL. Your engine burns the same amount of jetfuel per second regardless of how high or fast you are! The maximum cruise altitude is just over 40,000 feet. But since when do Kerbals wait for ideal conditions? Orbiting is the most fun one: the higher the orbit, the less speed you need to maintain to stay in orbit, *and* the less air there is, so that's a double-whammy in terms of reducing fuel consumption. 2022 Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. I generally don't fuss with AoI unless I'm making a long range cruiser. I don't have that other stuff yet. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. When I say ", You know you've nailed it correctly if, when you're in level flight, your. The ideal case for optimally efficient flight (which is what you want if you're trying to maximize cruise altitude) is when your wings are mounted to the body, pitched up just enough that when cruising in level flight, the body of the aircraft is pointing perfectly . I didn't succeed with his design, though; I always ended up having somehow unstable airplanes. its rather flat but its a solid surface. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. How do you get out of a corner when plotting yourself into a corner. I didn't try for 20000m as it probably wouldn't do well. This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one. If the wings are flat and your plane steadily loses altitude in level flight at a given speed (as most designs will by default), it means you either need to pitch up slightly, increasing the angle of attack and keeping your vertical velocity at 0 by flying up slightly to compensate for the pull of gravity that lift isn't compensating for. - Spamming airintakes didn't help. Yes. Hopefully this will be helpful to you. Trying to do something without the right part is long and difficult path. With only panthers unlocked I might add. Pvt. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. I followed a similar strategy. There is no such thing as "so high radar can not detect it", since radar can detect things in outer space. 2/3 (KSP 1.11.2) - YouTube I break out the Mk2 parts and Panther engines to build a better jet that can go higher and faster. Subscribe -. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Jets drop thrust at higher altitude and speed, but also drop . Building a rocket to fly vertical seems to be nearly impossible, in the atmosphere they tend to become unstable (or maybe I missed a trick?). Watch out for your SAS if you're running batteries without a jet for a long time. You can post now and register later. You get tons of thrust if you put it into "wet" mode, but you lose fuel efficiency. All other versions are slower and lower and unstable in turns. This can make it a good alternative for when you want something that can be controllable and doesn't need excessive heat shielding, but still need to be able to go incredibly fast if necessary, at the expense of increased fuel consumption. Due to the lower air pressure at higher altitudes its thrust output decreases accordingly. From my experience using a panther it starts to lose speed after 15-16 kms, a more suitable cruising height is 9-13km. As said above, the Wheesley is specifically designed as a low altitude engine. EDIT: Essentially, make like an SR-71, if an SR-71 didn't have cooling problems limiting it to Mach 3.4. Content titles and body; Content titles only Note that KSP planes get one substantial speed benefit that's much more pronounced than IRL aircraft, due to the freakishly small planet sizes: they're actually flying at a large fraction of orbital velocity. This is my current best hi alt plane. As I understand, the OP wanted "the most efficient way to fly", and simply needed a bit of help in realizing that that is a hypersonic, high-altitude, high-performance aircraft which is a RAPIER and a little oxidizer away from being an SSTO spaceplane. It'll probably be more efficient with more intakes, but I wouldn't increase the number of engines. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Air Intake: Air Intake shows the amount of force your engine uses to suck air into the turbine. a screenshot of kerbal space program 2. by: lord bird. Basically you just need to fiddle with it and try some test flights. You cannot paste images directly. Best way to get down into thicker air and land is to perform what dogfighters called a 'Split-S'. FAR is supposed to take aspect into account, but I'm not very experienced with it and cannot advice you as to how it works. Information Changelog Stats Along with rockets, planes are one of KSP's most commonly referenced kinds of vessel, and are a vessel type . Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Welcome to the forums, ZDW. If it's below the cross-hairs, you need a little more AoA. That will unlock: "Whiplash" Turbojet Which is capable of high altitude, high speed flight. Powered by Invision Community. If that's all a case of Too Many Words, think of it this way: Suppose you just build a plane the "default" way and don't put any. Dedicated to the growth and advancement of amateur rocket scientists! If you nudge your wing's angle up slightly with rotate tool then it'll move your prograde closer to your direction of flight and significantly reduce drag. A well-designed jet with this engine and with the afterburner lit, flown properly, can momentarily climb to 30,000 m altitude. This tutorial will cover designing and flying a plane that can soar at high altitudes! Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Evidence. The Rapier, for example, works great as a high-altitude engine, precisely because it can go so fast. Which is capable of high altitude, high speed flight. Privacy Policy. If you want to cover your aircraft with loads of intakes, I'm sure you could easily fly above 35km and reach 2000+ m/s velocity. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers.. Visit Stack Exchange Thrust means that slower-is-better no longer applies: now, slower means less drag but more gravity, so there's a tradeoff (which I'm not going to carefully calculate for you, because it's hard). General Electric F-404 Afterburning Turbofan, Stratus-V Cylindrified Monopropellant Tank, Kerbodyne KR-2L+ "Rhino" Liquid Fuel Engine, LFB KR-1x2 "Twin-Boar" Liquid Fuel Engine, T-1 Toroidal Aerospike "Dart" Liquid Fuel Engine, S1 SRB-KD25k "Kickback" Solid Fuel Booster, IX-6315 "Dawn" Electric Propulsion System, AE-FF1 Airstream Protective Shell (1.25m), AE-FF3 Airstream Protective Shell (3.75m), PB-NUK Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator, https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?title=J-404_%22Panther%22_Afterburning_Turbofan&oldid=95515. I was hoping that the new intakes would give it the added altitude. As long a you can fly faster, the lower density at altitude can be compensated for. i dont know what kind of range youre looking for but i would make a significantly smaller plane. *I use FAR these days, which basically means completely replacing every spaceplane and rocket you ever designed to account for its much more realistic aerodynamics. At this point the plane plummets, but as it goes deeper into the atmosphere, it regains pitch authority, and at 10km it's enough to regain control and turn it around for a safe landing. Double your speed, you need twice as much fuel. Thankyou all, I now reckon I have a much better understanding of the engines, hopefully that'll translate to better aircraft. Will post my results. The benefits should be obvious. One problem is i'm running stock on career mode and only have 30 part to spare, so large planes are out of the question. The other one I stay around 6000 meters. Welcome to the forums. When you are surrounded by plenty of air there will of course be no need to suck in air artificially but the higher you get the less dense the air around you becomes and in order to make sure that your engines have enough oxygen to burn the fuel it needs to suck air in forcefully. You are simply running out of atmosphere (i.e. I find that a conservative amount is 2 RAM intakes and 2-4 radial intakes per turbojet. They will someday, but they don't now. Download (104.45 MiB) License: CC BY-NC-SA 4.0 Game Version: 1.8.1 Downloads: 371,115 Author: blackheart612 Mod Website: Forum Thread Support this mod: Donate Followers: 626 Outdated Mod This mod is not known to work with the latest version of Kerbal Space Program. If you enter the Mun's SOI, it immediately counts as "In Space High over Mun" until you get below 60km Mun altitude. Aircraft can be very temperamental to fly, especially on the keyboard. Though I'm still working on learning to be better at space planes. Secondly don't think of engines working better at different altitudes, think of them working better with different air intake quantities. The Boeing X-37, also known as the Orbital Test Vehicle (OTV), is a reusable robotic spacecraft. So the faster you go the higher you can fly where there is less drag. You need to do it with what you've got. It may work with stock too, I just don't know. Don't worry about Isp. At about 400-500m/s (~15km), the two engines are even. Ksp engine altitudes I've been trying my hand at some High altitude speedy planes for a while now, but can't seem to get a hang of the altitudes that each engine likes, I know kerbal isn't earth, so looking up the crushing altitude of say the sr71, doesn't seem to apply, but I was hoping that others experiences would help me. Display as a link instead, Anyway thanks in advance. A temple in the desert (6 29 47 S 141 40 3 W) known as Tut-Un Jeb-Ahn, although this name can only be seen when a vessel crashes into it. Slap that behind a plane you'll be able to go beyond 20km without any trouble. Did any DOS compatibility layers exist for any UNIX-like systems before DOS started to become outmoded? Keep in mind that wheesley engine's performance decreases significantly as the altitude increases. @SaintWacko's advice is probably the most practical. Basically there are two things that limit your maximum speed: thrust and speed of sound and with that your maximum altitude. Once I'm near or in the target area, I set the throttle to 0 and start the Swivel. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Pasted as rich text. If you upgrade to the panther (or get one on a contract) that engine can get you much higher. high-2 A Screenshot of Kerbal Space Program Since turbos are almost always enough to get you off the ground and up to altitude, I usually just do straight turbojets (with some RAPIERs for SSTO spaceplanes); the minute amount of fuel saved during the ascent isn't worth lugging those superfluous engines around at the hypersonic regime. Here's Mr. Manley using it in his tutorial: @Pvt.Grichmann: I think it's at specific locations on Kerbin, not just anywhere above 18km. The SR-71 could probably fly higher, but it isn't flying any more. All trademarks are property of their respective owners in the US and other countries. To get higher with the low tech jet engines, you need rocket assist. Clear editor. Do plugins for Kerbal Space Program work on unix? So that means that even if you are inside the atmosphere but still orbital (such as during aerobraking), your science will not count as "Inside the atmosphere", For example, orbiting Kerbin above 250km altitude, your science is counted as "In Space High over Kerbin." high-1 A Screenshot of Kerbal Space Program By: miklkit This is the current version. Why is there a voltage on my HDMI and coaxial cables? FBW uses three controllers - pitch, roll and yaw. Really. Contents 1 Usage 2 Construction 3 Categories 3.1 Airplane 3.2 Seaplane 3.3 Spaceplane 3.4 VTOL 3.5 Glider 3.6 Mothership 4 Operation 4.1 Flight records 5 Notes Usage rev2023.3.3.43278. For all your gaming related, space exploration needs. - Inside the atmosphere works the same way, except you need to be on an suborbital trajectory. What are the minimum altitudes for each warp level? I've been trying my hand at some High altitude speedy planes for a while now, but can't seem to get a hang of the altitudes that each engine likes, I know kerbal isn't earth, so looking up the crushing altitude of say the sr71, doesn't seem to apply, but I was hoping that others experiences would help me. The thrust of jets (turbo or otherwise) depends on airspeed: basics deliver more thrust at low speeds, while turbojets only really come into their own when you fly very fast (which also means flying very high, 20km and over). By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Now lets combine these two indicators: The best performance your engine can achieve is when you have an optimal amount of Air Flow (obviously) but also the MAXIMUM amount of Air Intake. So long as there's only one high-altitude measurement to take, you should be able to complete a whole set of 3-4 in one flight. Which lets you go faster, which lets you climb higher. Additionally please know that .16 will feature new code that will change the way space planes work in every aspect. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. lost birth certificate near berlin; ksp high altitude plane. Rationale: If that's all a case of Too Many Words, think of it this way: Suppose you just build a plane the "default" way and don't put any AoA at all on the wings. Now I have a plane that will fly around the world at an altitude of the low-20s. The J-404 "Panther" Afterburning Turbofan is a jet engine added in version 1.0.5. For example, the RAPIER engine doesn't seem as the first choice as the "best" high altitude air-breathing engine but in long-distance and high-altitude challenges it is. The stratospheric region, where temperature rises as altitude increases, spans the region between the altitudes of 10 km and 22 km. The longest flight got them down to a little more than half full. These designs are great for getting around Kerbin quickly, but without going orbital. At the equator, sea level temperatures vary between a nighttime low of 9 C and a daytime high of 15 C. If it's below the cross-hairs, you need a little more AoA. So Pvt. That's because wings need to have some AoA to the airstream in order to generate much lift. One of my planes is small and agile, and can easily enough glide to a safe landing even if the rockets consume all the fuel. Clear editor. What are the altitudes for the various altitude record contracts? I don't recall if they model aspect ratio, but either way, the struts are murder and the delta wing has so much more wing that it'll still have more lift. You'll notice that usually your prograde marker is slightly below your pitch. If it's above the cross-hairs, you need a little less. More air is better. Is it suspicious or odd to stand by the gate of a GA airport watching the planes? I tried building a plane but can't climb higher than about 11,000m (I don't have many plane parts yet, though). Your airspeed is mostly limited by terminal velocity; you can go much faster if you climb a little higher. Let me. My plane has turbojets and lots of fuel, but I am wondering what the optimal way to fly is. For comparison, the second most maneuverable engine is the CR-7 R.A.P.I.E.R. Delta-V is the velocity change necessary to perform orbital maneuvers. Note that KSP planes get one substantial speed benefit that's much more pronounced than IRL aircraft, due to the freakishly small planet sizes: they're actually flying at a large fraction of orbital velocity. 1.) As has been said, ISP is nothing to worry about. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. I recommend using a solid rocket booster (or 2 or 5) to you get you the altitude and then launch a small rocket powered plane. That's sub-optimal, because having the fuselage pitched like that means it'll have more drag than it otherwise would have. Or it can supercruise at three times the speed of an equivalent Wheesley jet (with nearly equal fuel efficiency) at 15,000 m altitude. I'm trying to build a high altitude plane and have found out that the rules are different. How to tell which packages are held back due to phased updates. Most SSTO space planes would be able to accomplish this easily. Grichman's answer got me in the right direction. Redoing the align environment with a specific formatting, Trying to understand how to get this basic Fourier Series. (Actually, four ways: but balloons aren't in the stock game) Lifting surfaces are great but they lose effectiveness just as fast with altitude as drag falls. Why that? Or you need to put a little bit of angle of incidence in your wings, which will reduce drag since you don't have to pitch the entire plane up, but will be stuck at a fixed angle meaning you'll have to pitch up or down anyway during certain phases of the flight that the plane isn't optimised for. Knowing how to design these types of planes make jumping in to SSTO design very easy as there are only a few minor changes that need to be made.Music Credits:1st Song: \"Elephants\" - YouTube Audio Library2nd Song: \"Hot Heat\" - YouTube Audio Library3rd Song: \"Echoes\" - Kasbo - https://soundcloud.com/k-sboWhat game is this? Personally, I don't enjoy survey contracts on Kerbin. probably the easiest place to land in the system as terminal velocity is survivable for a craft less kerman. Is there a single-word adjective for "having exceptionally strong moral principles"? I also added a parachute and decoupler since I find it too hard to correctly land this thing yet ;-) I managed to land in the water once, though. If it's above the cross-hairs, you need a little less. alternatively, combine a liquid fuel rocket into your plane. It seems to be based on the General Electric F-404 Afterburning Turbofan, which shares the same name and maximum thrust (85 kN dry). Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Be sure to have enough intakes (I think maximum efficiency in stock is 1 ramjet intake per ~2 tons of plane, though that is aesthetically ridiculous), and if you're still running short of intake air, you can dip down a bit to speed up and get to denser air. It's Kerbal Space Program v.22! That's all true, but just read the OP: hypersonic appears to be completely out of the question. I don't have the numbers handy, but you can expect something like 400m/s at 15km. Your previous content has been restored. So I've created those two planes, both with weasley turbofan engine: This is your problem-- as folks have pointed out, it's not a high-altitude engine. Any advices for building a vehicle for this task? Unfortunately, there's no simple rule to tell you what the angle needs to be when you're building the plane-- it depends on lots of variables, such as your weight, drag, intended cruising altitude, intended cruising speed. 2022 Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. Make sure we're on the same page with terminology. Air Intake) and how fast your aircraft ultimately flies (air resistance/altitude)! Is it even possible? Note that you need to activate the afterburner ("Wet Mode") manually. Using very light "engine rich" planes and "reverse swooping" (building velocity at 10km then gently curving up) you can temporarily get above 20km with Wheesely and Juno. Is anywhere a list of the altitude levels (I don't know a better term) available? How to know if you've nailed it perfectly: when you're cruising in level flight, you want the marker to be precisely centered in your navball cross-hairs. This means it is better to have excessive amounts of oxygen than not to. I'd almost expect it to work better in stock since infini-gliders can be done. You cannot paste images directly. How do I align things in the following tabular environment? Powered by Invision Community, Thanks, I'll go try to stuff a few extra turbojets and intakes on my plane, I was generally under the impression that basic jets were mostly deadweight on high-performance aircraft: [] at hypersonic velocities. However, I've failed to build a vehicle to achieve this (without a hundred retries). But a rockets can do it. I would like to know which altitude I have to maintain for my experiments. In the main KSP settings menu you should set the default throttle to 1.0 (technically the above mechjeb setting winds up restoring the default throttle, so it needs to be 1.0) In the attitude adjustment menu make sure you are using the "better controller" Whack the 45 degree phase margin button Whack the restore all other defaults button For more information, please see our It flames out at 25,000. Are you using Stock or NEAR/FAR? Thanks for asking this, I've been struggling with the same problem in career mode. Just sounds like the engines can't get enough air, in KSP high speed also generates air intake so I'm guessing what is happening is that you have the initial speed to get to altitude but the lack of air at altitude is starving the engine resulting in lower speed which further reduces air intake and it cascades until either the engine shuts down or you return to denser atmosphere at a lower altitude. Only the fuel tanks attached to rockets have any oxidiser in them. You arent doing anything wrong. In this chapter, you ll learn about the Space Plane Hangar, a building that forms part of the Kerbal . and our The main body is a fuel tank with a Swivel engine at the end. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. surface of jool. That will probably allow you to fly comfortably above 20-25km (or higher, depending on the overall mass of your aircraft). Your answer got me in the right direction, though I ended up with a different design (see my own answer). Or try using SRBs instead. AoA and G-force moderation. Range with this method is pretty short due to drag. There's basically three ways to do that: lifting surfaces, thrust, and orbiting. In my case, it brought me to 20km up at a 45-degree angle, but it is probably not optimal. Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts. This can be done with moar boosters or more calculated wing and body design, depending on the aero model you use. It is usually best for initial designs to be based on logic and real-world physics and then be prepared to experiment with non-logical alternatives for optimisation. Delta wings are able to work better since the lack of lift per square area is compensated by having larger area to provide lift. Remembering the FW TA152 and the U2 I put long wings on it and while its turn rate makes an airliner look like a fighter plane it is stable enough at 19000m. My question is really about controllability. There are two factors to that: how thick the air is, how fast the ship is going. Mounting a time-limited rescue mission for kerbal inbound to Kerbin. Paste as plain text instead, KSP - High Altitude Aircraft 16,702 views Jan 22, 2016 172 Dislike Share Save Phoenix Fleet Systems 222 subscribers Have a type of atmospheric craft you'd like to see me experiment with? Unfortunately I won't be able to test it today, but @SaintWacko's proposal sounds promising. Kerbal Space Program ( KSP) is a space flight simulation video game developed by Mexican developer Squad for Linux, OS X, Windows, PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X/S and Xbox One. Paste as plain text instead, I was even able to do this with three pairs of Junos instead of the large jet engine pair (I don't have the technology level for that).